Does Winning Make a Game More Fun?
...and just to ask the question a different way, does losing make you enjoy a game less?
This post is also inspired by the discussion of the guys on episode 51 of Into the Gamescape. And then just this morning, I listened to the crew of On Board Games who happened to talk about "Winning" this week on their episode 56, which sort of spoke to and went right along with some of what I have to say.
Before I get into the main topic, however, let me touch on one thing that sort of informs this discussion, which is the idea of what kinds of games are fun. As I said really early on this blog, the whole point of playing games is to have fun. But the guys on Into the Gamescape (particularly Mike) made this big point of trying to differentiate between "fun" and "enjoyment", and what I took away from it was that his definition of fun was pretty much limited to the kind thing where you're laughing and smiling and all holly-jolly.
But to me, as I also explored in another previous post, I believe that there are all kinds of fun out there, some of which are silly and loud, but others are quiet and stimulating and cerebral. The way I see it, if you're enjoying yourself, you're having fun, so I use the term "fun" to mean any sort of experience with a game that makes you happy, satisfied, or otherwise ready to play it again.
Now, as you may know, I keep track of the statistics for my game group. In my experience, it's pretty obvious that, in general, players that do well in a game tend to rate the game better than those that suck at it.
The immediate thought is, of course, that the "sour grapes" phenomenon kicks in and, sort of as a self-defense mechanism, the losing players blame their poor performance on the game itself. And I think that a lot of us can get pretty judgemental about this, feeling that such a sentiment is rather petty and ignorant, and that "real" gamers should be able to rise above stuff like that. At times, I've been so influenced by this opinion that I've rated a game higher than I felt it should be, just so I'd avoid coming across this way.But first of all, who the heck am I to tell anyone what their experience of a game should be, or even worse, to tell them that they are wrong about the experience they had. A lot of us take these rating too seriously and/or assume that they are some sort of objective reality about the inherent awesomeness of a game. But actually, all they are is a thoroughly subjective evaluation of a person's experience with a game, and if someone had a miserable time playing your favorite game, it's totally okay for them to rate it very poorly.
So, I've established that people have a right to dislike the game. But does that change the fact that they're still just being petty with their feelings? Because, I promise you, I've definitely seen people get petty and even vindictive about a game when they are losing. However, I've come to see that this truly juvenile behavior is actually the exception rather than the rule, and that something else may actually be going on.
What if, however, the losing and the dislike of the game do not actually form a cause and effect relationship? But instead, perhaps both of them are related to and dependent on something else entirely. And as I see it, this "other thing" would be how well the person "gets" the game. Because for most any game, some people will almost immediately and intuitively understand how it works and how to manipulate the system, while others will find it far more opaque and difficult to navigate. Obviously, feeling successful and empowered in a game is going to naturally be more enjoyable, more fun, than being frustrated and stymied by it.
And of course, winning and losing isn't the only thing that determines how much fun you have with a game. I mean, sometimes you're completely fascinated by a game that you totally don't get. And then you have all of the factors I mentioned in my article about investing in games. Not to mention all of the stuff that you really can't account for, like the group you're with and what mood you're in and the current state of your digestive tract. But just in isolating what part comes from winning and losing, am I on to something?
Who knows; maybe my grand revelation here is and has always been completely obvious to most of you, and you're wondering why I've wasted 850 words or so getting into it. But I definitely haven't heard many people talk about it in the past, and I still feel like the assumption I mentioned to begin with is the prevailing one.
Still, though, what do you think about it? Is there anything that I've missed? Any other element that would play into it that I haven't considered? Anything else that makes you like and have fun with a game?
Are they being petty and vindictive, or are they just totally nuts?
I think this is more true for casual/non-gamers. As a gamer, I value the experience over the victory. In fact I've sold many games that I have had an impressive winning percentage in. On the other hands, for those that game much less frequently, most of the thrill comes from winning since they are unlikely to replay the game much to enjoy the fulfillment of 'figuring out' the game.
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Yeah, I totally agree that more casual or even non-gamers tend to be a lot more focused on winning. I think that someone on one of the podcasts I referenced above made that comment as well. And it's pretty funny sometimes, because the only games a lot of them play are standard party games, which can still be a lot of fun sometimes but usually have either random or ridiculous methods of scoring/determining a winner.
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I too value the experience over the victory, but I still prefer to avoid games in which I have 0% chance of winning before the game even starts due to (1) bad luck in randomly drawn "starting stuff" (like in Isla Dorada -- if you get only low-value treasures, you're out of the game), and (2) a total lack of balance between sides, which happens a lot in wargames such as Combat Commander.
I just want a fair shot at the win, I guess. That doesn't mean I'll shy away from a learning game of 18XX one of these days, which I really will have no chance of winning... but at least I'll know that going in.
Games are FUN and I'll jump at the chance to play nearly anything these days. I don't care to dwell on the negative aspects of such a positive and engaging hobby.
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I'm the "Mad Scientist" gamer. I'm willing to spend half a game building up a setup for a single move. The move doesn't have to win me the game, it just has to be something completely ridiculous. If I've succeeded in pulling that off, I consider that session to be great fun! (And I'll cackle a bit.)
After that, I usually lose the game in one move. But I really don't care. Heck, for that matter, I hardly ever play to win. I play to play those crazy moves.
BTW, this article is especially poignant for me. Last week I played Twilight Imperium for the first time, and I gotta say, I went home that night feeling a little upset. There was a player who was new to our group, and after making an alliance with him, he broke it. Totally within the rules, I know. Still, I was amazed at how pissed off I was. And it was a real struggle not to blame the game. Now I gotta play it again!
That experience opened my eyes a little, helping me see things from the point of view of the players who say "I don't want to play that", for no apparent reason.
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I can be a bit of a "Mad Scientist" myself sometimes, but it's usually only once I realize that I can't win anymore (because I'm so far behind or whatever). But you sort of need to be careful, because games are designed to be played to win, even if that's not your main goal for playing. If you really don't play to win, it can sometimes screw the game up for everyone else, which isn't very fun for them.
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I wonder if Kenny realizes he's giving you the finger in the bottom pic.
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He didn't at the time, but others pointed it out.
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I feel uniquely qualified to speak to this topic. As someone who rarely wins, the title of this article intrigued me. The gut response is yes, it does make it more fun. And that's true. To an extent. I thought about this question more, trying to pick the experience of winning apart from what is fun about a game. And I came to some conclusions, at least for me.
It boiled down to 'what is fun about a game?'. Which is one of the real questions underneath all this. For me and many people its the whole experience of a game. The people involved, your own mood, the atmosphere of the gaming area, the game itself - all of this works toward making play of a game fun. This is a given for most of us.
But back to the picking apart. I noticed something. There is a difference between having fun with a game and enjoying a game. I have found that I can enjoy a game without actually having fun with it. And this usually has to do with whether I get the game or not. "Obviously, feeling successful and empowered in a game is going to naturally be more enjoyable, more fun, than being frustrated and stymied by it." This is so true for me. There have been games where it just didn't click and I got massacred. And it wasn't fun. It was frustrating. But in almost every case I enjoyed the game. I was pleased with and appreciated the mechanics or how the game came together.
Winning is fun. No doubt about it. It's more fun than losing. But there can be something to enjoy in losing a well designed game or playing with people you enjoy gaming with.
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Fun vs. enjoyment is really about how you define fun, though. To me, I can't imagine a case where I wouldn't equate the two (especially in regards to playing a game).
And while I do okay with winning games, I would almost say that winning is irelevant to me. Doing well and feeling like I was effective in playing a game, however, is freaking huge to me in how much I have fun with it.
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Yep, winning is more fun. That's not to say that you can't have a great time and lose. In fact, some of my most epic memories - and times I've had the most fun - have been games where I lost.
But there's no denying that a win gives you a little boost and makes the game seem more enjoyable.
I think you're right, though, about the fun factor being tied directly to how quickly a person "gets" a particular game. If it comes easily and naturally - the game is more fun. If it seems convaluted and contrived, it's more work than play.
And while there's certainly some objectivity (some games are just more fiddly than others), in many cases it comes down to the individual gamer.
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